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How to deal with atrocities?

How to deal with atrocities? « Samizdata.

Perry de Havilland at Samizdata sets out what won't defeat Islamic terrror. 

one approach I am quite certain does not work is candlelight vigils, weepy hashtags and a refusal to face up to who the enemy is and why they are doing what they are doing.

He makes a good point but what will?


To begin with we should do nothing to validate the belief of these losers™ that they are special. The Prevention of Terrorism Act 2005 – a piece of knee-jerk legislation that led me to begin this blog long years ago – was (and this is the least of my criticisms) a mistake in psychological terms. It dealt differently with those who murder for political reasons thus confirming their view that they were more than "common criminals". This was a very different approach to that of Margaret Thatcher. She always insisted that Jeremy Corbyn's chums in the Provisional IRA were not "soldiers" or "political activists" but criminals like any other; that their motives made no more difference to the legal analysis of their actions than they did to the reality of the outcome for the victims and their families. One is no less dead for being murdered in a cause and one's killer is no more for it.


Such criminals should be detected, arrested and tried. If convicted they should go to the same prisons as other murderers and be treated exactly the same. Murder carries the maximum penalty presently permitted under English Law because it is the worst crime. Any special treatment of terrorist murderers and their accomplices is legally a distinction without a difference and – worse – will be in their eyes a badge of honour.  


If, statistically, Muslims are currently producing more terrorists, I see nothing illiberal about controlling future immigration from their countries until the terrorism has been defeated. Let's acknowledge we have a problem among the Muslims we already have. Let's own it, address it and while we are doing so prevent it from becoming worse. Some people will call that "racist" but they should not confuse us with people who give a damn about their playground name-calling. Repeal whatever legislation prevents such a policy and put it in force — just as President Trump has been wading through the Deep State swamp to attempt in the USA. Opinion polls suggest there is massive democratic support for such a policy across the whole of Europe.


That leaves the question of the already resident Muslim population most of whom, thank goodness, pose no threat. We can maximise that proportion by some common sense measures:

  1. Change our relationship with Saudi Arabia, the heart of Islamic darkness. It does not permit Christian evangelism on its territory. In contrast, as a civilised country, we permit all religions to be practised, but that does not mean we have to allow the Saudis to fund theirs. Currently there are more Wahhabi Korans in the UK than any other versions because Saudi Arabia provides them free of charge. Wahhabism is a particularly dangerous sect and motivates a disproportionate number of terrorists. 
  2. If this is thought likely to affect arms sales to that Kingdom, then perhaps we should form an Organisation of Weapons Exporting Countries to fulfil a similar function to that of OPEC in relation to oil.
  3. It may be necessary, after appropriate research, to prevent other countries from funding mosques and madrassas in Britain. I see no problem with that either. I am sure local Muslim philanthropists will step into the breach.
  4. We should ditch the doctrine of multiculturalism and make it a matter of immigration policy that new arrivals are welcome only on the basis that they agree to integrate into our society and live according to our values. There is no ethical problem, in my opinion, in stating definitively that Shariah Law is incompatible with those values. New immigrants should swear an affidavit on entry to confirm that they understand and accept this.
  5. We should break the news to our Muslim communities that they and their families have come to live in a Christian culture. Most Brits may not be religious now but still our country is one formed by Christian values. Constitutionally, it is actually a kind of mild Christian theocracy as we have no separation of Church and State. The Church of England is Established and twenty-six of its bishops – the Lords Spiritual – are ex officio members of Parliament. In this quirky theocracy, the Theos is Jehovah, not Allah. Daft, in my personal opinion, as I very much believe in the separation of Church and State on the American or French model, but no less true for that.
  6. We should deliver public services only in the official languages of the United Kingdom. When I lived in Poland, Russia and China I could not expect to deal with the authorities in English. They took the perfectly reasonable view that my weakness in their languages was my problem. To the extent I could not cope I found friends, colleagues or paid translators to help me. By dealing with immigrants in their own languages, we have encouraged them NOT to assimilate and have made it unnecessary for them to learn English. It is our fault, not theirs, that so many Muslim mothers live and raise their children dangerously outside our society's mainstream. I am sure most were initially astonished to find that our public sector is prepared to deal with them in their own languages at taxpayers' expense.
  7. We should cut all other services (e.g. translators to sit with children in classes, chaperones to accompany ladies to medical appointments) that discourage integration. Of course we should be tolerant of the needs of learners to bring English speakers along to help them out until they are fluent. I am sure there would also be some doctors prepared to allow male members of Muslim ladies' families to accompany them to consultations. I would not make any doctor do so, however. The ladies in question chose to come to a country where such an approach is alien (and rather insulting to our doctors). No-one forced them to come. They could have stayed in their countries of origin and these issues would never have arisen.
  8. We should provide English classes for refugees. They didn't choose to come and it's only decent to help them out. Economic migrants, like me in Poland, Russia and China, should pay for their own damned language lessons.
  9. Finally we must recruit thousands of members of the police, the Special Branch and MI5 from among our Muslim citizens. We are so often assured that most of them are peace-loving and loyal that I cannot imagine this will be difficult. As a young lawyer in Nottingham I personally administered the Oath of Allegiance to many new Muslim citizens and kept a Koran at hand for the purpose. I am sure many of their families have suitably qualified members now. 

I don't put forward any of these suggestions to punish British Muslims or even to deter future immigration once the problem has been solved. But if we are to reduce terrorism here, rather than just accept it as "part and parcel of life in a big city", I think measures like these are necessary. Do you agree? If so what other measures would you suggest? If not, then how do YOU think we should defeat Islamic terror?


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Barnacle Bill. Good post.
Gratifying to see you support so many of my points on May 25. Logical thinking leads to far different attitudes and reactions than are currently fashionable in UK and more so in Europe. Seems to be cowardice deliberate ignorance and appeasement.
The muslims openly state they are at war with us using rape, demographics, entryism, lying, anything to push relentlessly for their goal of sharia law in the whole world. They play a remorseless focussed very long term game.
Why can our "leaders" not take them at face value. They are in denial and by the time they wake up it will really be too late.
I think history teaches Islam has to be slapped down every so often and they are quiet then for a century or so.
We are so lucky our younger generation are so tough and bold and mentally and physically up to the job of defending western civilisation. Aren't they?

barnacle bill

I have thought long and hard before voicing my opinion on your question Mr Paine.

It is not the actual dealing with the atrocities we have to worry about. That is covered by our emergency services. Who have been doing a grand job with limited resources. Let us hope that Manchester will loosen the government's purse strings even more for those gallant services.

Looking at the numbers quoted by both the police and our intelligence services of those they have a primary, then those they have secondary interests in, it is a very worryingly large number. Even if we were to double the number of footpads available to MI5 & MI6 they probably could not maintain 100% surveillance upon those they really wanted too.

So I seriously think we are going to have to look at internment until we are really on top of the situation.

Those that the police and intelligence services deem to be on their A lists should be swept off the streets immediately. Hopefully it will throw a rather large spanner into plans for any future atrocities. It will also demonsteate that our governement means business on sorting this problem out.

Also until peace returns to this once fair lands we should regard all Muslims as the enemy with-in. Active or passive they remain a threat to our way of life and the values we hold dear. We should cut off external funding to the mosques, deport all foreign immans, whilst encouraging a "Reformation" of the Muslim faith in this country.

The story of how Anne Franks's family and those escaped PoWs were helped in the occuppied countries shows the human spirit at it's best. Yet could you see that happening in a Muslim country? Even the most moderate?

Remember time is not on our side, soon we will be a minority in our own homeland.


The "about" page looks decidedly dodgy. It's rather overstating its case to say the very least. I'd stick to the Freedom Association and infiltrating your local Conservative Party or LibDems if I were you. There's no way to drag Labour away from authoritarianism of course. Bossing us all about is its raison d'être.



It looks a bit dodgy, though.


I used to be a member of Liberty but it’s a Labour Party front and only interested in the “positive” liberties that involve forcible confiscation of other people’s money to provide. Real, negative liberties (the government refraining from interference in people’s lives and using its power only to restrain others from doing so) do not have much traction there. Don’t know about the “Civil Liberty” group. Do you have a link please? The Freedom Association is sound and (in my not very secret identity) I am a member.


After the election is over they'll scurry back to their safe space aka Westminster until such times as they have to venture out again to meet the great unwashed.

People could also consider supporting civil liberties pressure groups: I've found two online (discounting "Liberty" (who'd have thought that inverted commas could express irony)): "Civil Liberty" and "The Freedom Association".


I am sure you are right. Our treating of muslims as special, of leaning over backwards to avoid giving offence has been seen as weakness by them not evidence of our superiority and they have pushed on an open door.
However I think you overlook the mechanics of terror. All muslims are not trying to get the green flag of islam to fly over 10 Downing Street but they are probably content to let the few activists do the heavy lifting. Muslim fanatics want to kill non-muslims and moderate muslims are happy to let the fanatics do so.The koran forbids them to intervene.
May I presume to link to this video for a view on "peaceful" muslims.
I find it powerful stuff from an exceptional woman.


Less than 5% support terrorism so 95% have not "declared war" on us. People talked this way about the Irish during the IRA's far more deadly and professional campaign and who thinks of terrorism when they drink with an Irish friend now? BTW I suspect support for the Provos was higher amongst Irish Catholics than support for ISIS etc among British Muslims. Let's not throw the baby out with the bath water. We (British Muslims and the rest of us) got this wrong. Let's start getting it right. Treat all citizens equally and enforce all laws thoroughly without distinction. That's all I am saying. Who can object? And no I am not Spock like or bloodless. I cried at the pictures of dead little girls. But calm, reasonable, fearless thinking is most likely to reduce future risk.


I read a comment somewhere by a woman (I think) that she was terribly upset for the UK's muslims because the Manchester massacre would lead to more islamophobia for them to endure poor souls. I call that twisted thinking.
Saying that these lovely muslims have only become a mortal threat to us all because we treated them in accordance with our standards and misled them is ....I don't know what to call it..QED probably. We gave them the chance to show us what they are really like. We provided them with daily examples and demonstrations of how to behave in this society they chose to come to and because of their imams their religion and their famous IQ levels they got the wrong messages. We gave them example not carte blanch or free passes.
Is it not possible to say "OOps sorry got it wrong . Three generations too late we are now going to treat you the way we should have done from the start".
We have to start on the solution. Stop foreign funding of mosques deport radical imams, intern anyone suspected of terrorism or plotting it.And stick to our plans in the face of wailing from bleeding hearts and apologists and sorry to say this people who seem too ready to blame the people of the Uk for treating them like civilised rational human beings.

They have declared war on us. They are intolerant of our tolerance. In back street parlance they are taking the piss. Because we let them. If people tell you they wish you dead it is not a bad idea to believe them.
It is probably all academic anyway. Western civilisation is doomed to extinction unless some dramatic changes take place.
I see no sign of them.
Dealing with this evil death cult will all-but destroy our way of life anyway. And probably take generations. It will be death by appeasement. If you think a cost/benefit analysis might indicate it is best to submit and become carpet sniffers then maybe we should just speed up our current efforts to integrate with our invaders. Just wait till I'm dead.Please. I'm sunk in despair.

David Davis

A "fax" actually came to our (reassuringly expensive) chalet in Couchevel! I still have it somewhere.

David Davis

I did think it would fall. In 1988 I said it, and repeated it informally in my workplace, and said it would be in late 1989.

My views about socialism didn't go down well with the MD, (Susannah Hammond of Ogilvy and Mather PR London, of which I was at the time their research Director.) This was a clever woman striving to get (and she got) the Press-Relations-Account for "Are you ready for 1992?" (in effect, the Single Market or Reich.)

I got the sack while on holiday at the end of 1988.


Yes,we need to stop treating muslims as muslims and start treating them as British citizens.

We are making the same mistakes in Ireland.

Special judge to hear alleged Longford mosque assault case today

Why should a special judge we appointed for this?


In the wake of yet another mass murder, I perfectly understand the emotion, Matt but I don't agree. This situation is not the fault of the immigrants. it's our fault.

I am sure when they came to Britain, they didn't expect to be encouraged to continue their old way of life. It's a big deal to uproot yourself from your home culture in order to find a better life for your family. Generally it appeals to a hard-working, aspirational type of person. My local MPs father was an immigrant from Bangladesh who worked hard running businesses here to support his family. I am sure he was an excellent influence on his children. It was our education system that turned his daughter into the Corbynite enemy of our values that she is today.

Our state provided immigrants with leaflets on claiming benefits in their own languages, supplied translators to sit by their children in their classes at school, provided "chaperones" to accompany their women to doctors' appointments and translate for them. Our police, social services and prosecutors suppressed the stories of the white girls groomed and abused in Rotherham by accusing those who raised the problem as "racist". Indeed I believe it was only when a Muslim became the head of the local Crown Prosecution Service that action was taken. When you hear someone protesting about "offence" being caused by our celebrating Christmas or whatever it is almost always a white leftist stirring up division.

Years ago when I was a young defence lawyer in Nottingham Magistrates Court a custody sergeant down in the cells told me that murders in the city's Muslim community were being written down as suicides – as if any young girl would kill herself by pouring paraffin on herself and setting herself alight – because the detectives were afraid that reporting the "honour killing" motive would lead to them being called racists by their bosses. Fresh from my Marxist lecturers at Law School, I called him a racist. He told me that I was part of the problem and I see now – to my shame – that he was right. Our system was truly racist in that respect of course, in that had those young girls been white their murders would have been vigorously investigated. Had we held those Muslim fathers and brothers to our standards from the very beginning, how many girls' lives would have been saved?

We enabled, no we encouraged, the creation of ghettos in the name of "multiculturalism". It is our own state and its army of social science graduate parasites looking for trouble to cause that has betrayed us at every turn. If we expect, as is perfectly reasonable and civilised, that people coming here live by our values, then many of those hostile to them will not want to come. Those that do, should simply have our laws enforced against them without fear or favour.

As to cutting off benefits, job-seeker's allowance is only paid to those actively seeking work, right? Those notorious hate preachers living on benefits are clearly not. Again, let's just enforce the rules as they are and not be afraid of being called names. Furthermore anyone who doesn't speak English is not really capable of actively seeking work and should be ineligible.


She would have left during the purge.


We will have to follow the Spanish example and rid the country of muslims.

It took them eight hundred years. Everything moved slowly in those days. We can speed it up if we make them want to leave. No job, no English language skill, any criminality, any bellowing in the street about killing policemen and the result would be really painful. Cut off benefits or "salary" as they cynically call it.
Coupled with your ideas on removing their apparent specialness and multi-culti deference this should do the trick.

Make them want to leave. Simple, and leaves open a door to escalate the goads and prods if there is too much resistance. They are unwelcome,dangerous, and totally incompatible with this country (or the West generally)coming from and belonging to an alien civilisation.


`and promote some real policemen to run such a show'

The name Cressida Dick springs to mind. She is bound to promote the right sort of policemen as long of course as in their blood lust they slaughter innocent young Christians rather than murderous heathens.


The recruiitment needs to be done. The IRA was riddled with British agents by the end and when US money dried up after 9/11 and Soviet assistance (my Polish driver claimed to have trained Palestinians and IRA men when he was in the Red Army) ended after the Wall fell was pretty much finished. It took Blair to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. I don't know how easy it will be but I'm guessing there are recruits to be had at the risk of some counter infiltration. My tongue was gently in my cheek only to mock the Establishment's difficulty in reconciling its line on the loyalty of our members of the Religion of Peace with any resistance it may encounter to its advances. Within a year there should be at the least a paid informer or two in every mosque, madrassa and Islamic charity. It should not be possible to plan an illegal action in such a context without the police knowing. Of course they will need to purge their treacherous sociology majors and promote some real policemen to run such a show.


"Finally we must recruit thousands of members of the police, the Special Branch and MI5 from among our Muslim citizens. We are so often assured that most of them are peace-loving and loyal that I cannot imagine this will be difficult."

I'm assuming this was written with tongue firmly in cheek?


Did we think the Berlin Wall would fall? Did we think Britain would ever leave the EU? Be of good cheer brother Antisthenes. Nil desperandum.


We have pandered to identity politics by allowing such concepts as Islamophobia to feature in public policy at all. Nothing is only wrong or right because done to a given group. There are no Muslim, women's or gay rights. Only human rights. The only units for sound political, legal and moral purposes are individuals and the human race as a whole. All other categories are fictions to divide us against each other. I am afraid cooks in schools and prisons etc *must* accommodate halal, just as they do kosher and vegan and I certainly don't think we should *ignore* the views of respectable citizens of any faith, though I share your cynicism at the very concept of a "community" leader. Most such speak for nothing but their own vanity and greed. The real damage though is done by politicians who cynically and manipulatively use such scoundrels as tokens to check the box of having engaged with X or Y group.


Any day now, the election campaign will resume. Politicians will be on your doorstep, giving you a good opportunity to make such suggestions as above. In the end, they are creatures of their electorate. If the only voices they hear are those of the politically obsessive left, those will be the voices they will act upon. If they're Leftists the doorsteppers will call you bad names. You will survive.


Eminently sensible advice which is exactly why our lefty intellectually challenged politicians and activists will never allow it to be adopted.


You are as ever correct Tom. The problem is that none of this will happen. None of our people wanted to live in such a multi-cultural hellhole, but our politicians arranged it none the less. We have the apparatus of state arraigned against us - it is what they have planned for us - step out of line and you will be called all sorts of vile names, smeared and possibly imprisoned. Look at the example they have made of Tommy Robinson.

Tim Newman

We could also stop pandering to Muslims by arresting people for "Islamophobic" comments, caving into demands for pork-free and Halal menus, inviting "community leaders" to hob-knob with establishment figures, etc. They should be tolerated but otherwise ignored, not pandered to and especially not at the expense of the host population.

james higham

In your usual manner, you've got it in one. Good set of steps.


Ditto when I lived in Barcelona... Official notices were in two languages though - Castellano ("official" Spanish) and Catalan. If I neeeded translation I had to pay for it.


Economic migrants, like me in Poland, Russia and China, should pay for their own damned language lessons.

As I did when I went to France. And quite right, too. I expected nothing less.

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